It's not like things changed after... iraq, iraq 2, afghanistan, syria and many others... dead kids from all over US and europe losing their lives for some rich people to get richer. Somehow occupying sovereign countries and killing kids is a bad thing only when putin does it.
And the ones sent to iraq wanted to be there... and die there? Or to afghanistan?
Can't afford US college? Go to army! Can't afford a doctor? Army will fix you up! Join, a few peaceful years at a few bases, you'll have a college degree, you'll make mama proud, just sign here, you're 18 already, you can't buy beer yet, but you can join the army!
Add some "fighting for US freedom" propaganda, and end up as a homeless disabled veteran after the war.
We are the baddies. I live in a small EU country, and have soldiers in syria now.
We could atleast have pulled them back home, before pointing a finger at putin, but we didn't even do that (and they'd all fit in a minibus).
We're currently destroying our own economies because someone else is doing something that we've been doing for years now. Technically we deserve being cold and maybe some kind of a revolution, because we've deserved it for destroying countries all around the world, but I'd prefer things to stop and normalize before we all freeze to death here.
Especially as someone from a small EU country, this seems completely different to me, unless living in a Putin puppet state is an acceptable alternative to you.
Invading other countries is bad (including when the EU does it).
Invading and massacring Ukraine is bad.
Both can be true at the same time. And only because we haven’t eliminated the first doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight the second.
But we don't even plan to eliminate the first. How can we point the finger at putin, if we're doing the same as him? We're literally standing on a pile of middle-eastern bodies (let's not forget why the middle eastern crisis even started), and screaming "...but putin!".
Look at the french for example... they have literally their embassies burning now, because people want their army out of their sovereign country, and the media sits quiet, mentioning maybe "some protests". The EU is threathening Hungary for wanting to buy russian gas, while sitting quiet about France.
Why should putin have to stop, if we don't? And if we care for peoples lives and sovereign countries, why don't we care about the ones we're destroying right now?
>Somehow occupying sovereign countries and killing kids is a bad thing only when putin does it.
If you don't see a difference between a war where soldiers that rape and pillage are criminals in their own country, where questionable decisions that caused civilian suffering are widely condemned, a war that saw very large domestic movement against it as it unfolded and another one where rape, torture, slavery, ethnic genocide and killing/exploiting of innocent people is an openly admitted state policy with the worst offenders getting decorated for it, with the majority of the population not only in support, but craving blood, more torture and use of nuclear weapons. I have no words to convince you. I can only hope that you will reflect on this in future.
> If you don't see a difference between a war where soldiers that rape and pillage are criminals in their own country
All of those are claims that are made by the very ones who lied 8 years about nonexistent WMDs.
Moreover, the Ukrainian minister who made those lies up was fired by the Ukrainian government because even the govt. found it way too extreme. She is now busy backstabbing her former employers by saying that "They made me lie that way"...
> All of those are claims that are made by the very ones who lied 8 years about nonexistent WMDs.
Which individuals are those? Can you name them?
Re “the Ukrainian minister who made those lies up,” I’d also like a name for that. Russian atrocities have been reported broadly across many outlets, and even Russian media is clamoring that it’s not brutal enough.
All the mainstream media said iraq has WMDs... it was basically on every european and american tv channel in preparation for the war. Once before that, we heard that iraqi soldiers killed babies... that was a "fun" one too...
The same media also reported of the "Ghost of kiyev".. so yeah... surely we must believe them "now".
> Re “the Ukrainian minister who made those lies up,” I’d also like a name for that. Russian atrocities have been reported broadly across many outlets, and even Russian media is clamoring that it’s not brutal enough.
> Lawmaker Pavlo Frolov said Ms. Denisova was also accused of making insensitive and unverifiable statements about alleged Russian sex crimes and spending too much time in Western Europe during the invasion.
> “The unclear focus of the Ombudsman's media work on the numerous details of ‘sexual crimes committed in an unnatural way’ and ‘rape of children’ in the occupied territories that could not be confirmed by evidence, only harmed Ukraine,” Mr. Frolov said in a Facebook post.
Ah yes the spooky “mainstream media” which seems always to somehow say the opposite of what you believe. This is not an addressable concern to be honest. It’s like complaining about “the elites.” Just needs to be more specific.
Also your evidence of Ukraine lying about war crimes is the firing of a woman who lied about war crimes? Sure, people lie, but then that obviously prompts the question of why haven’t all the other people who have been discussing Russian crimes been fired as well (since, as you’re implying, the crimes are fake?)
> Ah yes the spooky “mainstream media” which seems always to somehow say the opposite of what you believe
That 'spooky' mainstream media lied about babies in incubators in Iraq, then nonexistent WMDs, then about freedom-loving Libyan rebels, then freedom-loving Syrian rebels, and now they are telling other things in the latest foreign policy project.
Why the hell are you people even giving them any credibility, leaving aside actually believing them? Where does the buck stop?
The corporate media not lying about matters that do not touch the economy, military or the foreign policy does NOT make them trustworthy in other matters.
> why haven’t all the other people who have been discussing Russian crimes
She was not fired for 'discussing'. She was fired for an outrageous lie that she produced as the person responsible for the official position of the government.
> Also your evidence of Ukraine lying about war crimes is the firing of a woman who lied about war crimes?
Amazing how you contort actual evidence of lying by an administration from the highest levels to a proof of it being honest.
Mental gymnastics. Apparently that's what enables you people to believe your establishments.
It's really silly to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is just suckling from "the mainstream media" while you are blessed with the special information sources that provide you The Truth. Who said I'm giving the media any credibility?
> She was not fired for...
This is a non sequitur so I don't really know what to say here. Try re-reading what I had said.
> Amazing how you contort...
Well it wasn't the highest levels lol. It was a few rungs down from the highest level, and the highest level then held that lower level responsible for its misbehavior. That's exactly what you'd expect to see from an institution holding itself to a high bar.
I'm saying that mainstream media has an agenda and is showing us propaganda.
The mainstream media told us about dead babies in iraq, told us about WMDs and told us about nazis in ukraine ( https://i.imgur.com/mRAaOo0.jpg ). Then the war started, and suddenly nazis are a conspiracy theory.
It's a war, shit happens, media focuses on every dead civilian who died because of russians, and ignores all the dead civilians killed by american bombs, even at weddings in countries US is not even at war with, and it ignores all the dead civilians killed by ukranians, and it ignores all the dead civilians killed by israelis, etc.
No one is saying the Nazis thing is “a conspiracy theory.” They’re saying they don’t care. There are neo-nazi elements in every country’s military, especially in Europe. That doesn’t mean Nazis are okay, nor does it mean all of those countries which have those elements are illegitimate and no longer have a right to self-defense.
This point is never raised as an effort to get said Nazis out of combat/prevalence (in which case, sure, let’s do it). It’s just used to suggest we shouldn’t be supporting a democratic ally who got invaded by an autocratic warlord with imperial motives.
There was a great article a few years ago about the huge Neo-Nazi element in the German military. It’s a huge problem. It’s bad. Does this mean we need to allow Russia to roll tanks into Berlin and put up a wall again? That’s why you’re getting dismissed so readily that you think it’s because people believe it’s a “conspiracy theory.” It’s a completely meaningless point. It has no bearing on the situation whatsoever.
> No one is saying the Nazis thing is “a conspiracy theory.” They’re saying they don’t care. There are neo-nazi elements in every country’s military, especially in Europe
These are not 'Neonazi elements'. They are actual Nazi brigades comprised of actual nazis who know their theory, who think that they are ubermensch and everyone else either should be enslaved or killed. They are not your average skinhead occasionally attacking immigrants.
And yeah, the media is now past saying that Nazis are a conspiracy theory - that was until a few months ago. Because the Nazis were unrepentant in their Nazism, now the media is whitewashing them.
Yes, they are neo-Nazi elements. Given that the Nazi political party no longer exists, anyone who adheres to their ideology is described as a neo-Nazi. It has nothing to do with whether they "know their theory," and I'm a bit confused as to what you think neo-Nazis believe if thinking you're ubermensch makes you an actual Nazi. All neo-Nazis believe those things - that's what it means to be a neo-Nazi!
I'd be curious for any source where any outlet with a readership above, say 1MM people, said that neo-Nazi battalions don't exist and that it's a conspiracy theory. Surely if "the mainstream media" was all about this position, you'll be able to find a source? I just looked and I couldn't find even one.
And before you go ahead and trick yourself in this search for sources: there are conspiracy theories that the upper echelons of Ukraine's national government is comprised of neo-Nazis. This is referred to as a conspiracy theory because it is.
Entire mainstream corporate media, foremost Angloamerican, current US State Dept., CIA, other 3-letter agency top officials, who were the mid-level foot soldiers implementing the lies, the ex top officials of those agencies, who are retired and who are now called 'the intelligence community' now, making 6 figures while working in private think tanks who manufacture and sell those lies, all the privately-owned satellite media with Angloamerican and local neoliberal shareholders, the entire 2003 shtick.
> Russian atrocities have been reported broadly across many outlets
They haven't been. BBC, Le Monde or Spiegel are not 'broad, different outlets'. They have been lying about everything along with their big daddy since a long time, including the nonexistent WMDs.
There isn't anything as such in Indian, Indonesian, South American, Vietnamese, Egyptian or South African media. That's broad. Not the outlets who are owned by the same lot.
The below article bluntly demonstrates the falsity of the existence of 'free media' in the capitalist West.
India at the UN condemned “war crimes in Bucha,” which they stopped short of accusing their strategic partner of, but obviously it wasn’t Ukrainian armed forces walking through Bucha executing civilians, right?
Seems odd to lament the lack of truly free media in the west and then believe even half a word out of Russia’s mouth.
Also FYI, “intelligence community” does not refer to retired government people on the media circuit. It refers to the actual intelligence agencies themselves.
Similar news were made, and similar condemnations were issued at the UN for a lot of other 'war crimes' that turned out to be nonexistent.
> then believe even half a word out of Russia’s mouth.
That's your own personal bias - 'either/or'. There are many other sources than 'Russia'. The world is not bipolar like in Anglosphere.
> Also FYI, “intelligence community” does not refer to retired government people on the media circuit
No. 'The intelligence community' as a term is used to include the retired personas now working in think tanks, in order to give them authority. Those people's papers from think tanks cant be referenced or cited as belonging to actual intelligence agencies after they retired. But if you say 'intelligence community', you can cite them all you want...
What claims? I'm in a country where 4 million refugees came(domestic population of 36mln). When they talk of the atrocities, when they show you videos of their own killed, raped/tortured neighbors they find in their homes, when they show you videos taken on their cellphones of piles of naked female bodies drenched in gas, with few tires thrown on top and lit on Russian forces escape routes literaly right after they left. Videos they took while in panic mode, fight g with themselves wanting to leave this horrible scenes ASAP, but they make those videos because they want the world to see the truth. Then when you see videos taken of things found by incoming soldiers. Holes in the ground with hundreds of civilian people with their hands tied and bullet in the back of their head. I work with AI I know how deep fakes look like. Those are not deep fakes. Those are all cellphone videos taken from hand, with audio, showing everything including the person taking it and local landmarks.
Then you have one of the most notorious units where individual torturers and tormentors identified by name, this unit gets decorated by Putin. At the same time you have Russian gov-controlled media openly calling for killing every Ukrainian and every commentary cheering them.
When all this happens and some people say "this is same lies as iraqi wmd". They are either trolls, shills or they live life so sheltered that they never had to discover what Russian soldiers do in areas they enter.
Here in Poland we had Russians here few times at war time and no one has to convince us what they do. I'm old enough to have had WW2 survives come to my primary school and give us first hand accounts. Back then those that escaped concentration camps and PL in general were telling people in the West what was going on. They too were disbelieved.
BTW, this is not the "first time in modern time" they do it. They did the same thing in Chechnya and Syria. The difference is that today everyone has a high quality video recorder in their pocket and communication with the entire world so all their atrocities are plain to see to everyone.
Here is a key difference between Russia and the US/Europe. When Iraq war is bad, thousands of people can march across American/European cities without a fear of getting jailed. People can run for elections hammering their opponents on voting for a monstrous war (Obama trounced Hillary and others) and win. And that makes a difference (Syria - US/Europe didn't go there; in fact, the world afterwards wished that the US had gone to fight against Assad to prevent further tragedies).
Vs what is happening in Russia? I heard demonstrators and political opponents are jailed. Even an old lady, who survived the siege of Leningrad and dared protest against Putin, was taken away by the police. That is what makes US regime much much better than Putin's.
Closing bank accounts is bad. Jailing an old woman in her 80's? That's whole another level. No government is perfect but there are shades of bad and you can see for yourself where a government falls on that spectrum.
